Curse

Agolk2 · May 13, 2005, 03:01 AM // 03:01

omg level 19 lol, keep going youll find something

PieXags · May 13, 2005, 04:19 AM // 04:19

I think the main problem here (from my view at least) is that people...care too much about winning all the time. Play for fun people, I spent 4 hours last night playing PvP with an off-the wall character I just created, and used one of the selectable builds. And I had a great amount of fun, and I lost more than I won, but the more I played, the more I won, as I was getting better at it and more used to it. Did I CARE that some guy had better equipment than me? ...no? He worked for his, he should get it. And besides, I killed him several times anyways, so what's the big deal?

The playing fields ARE level, everyone has the oppurtunities to get the same things as everyone else, yeah, you have to go out and work for them to get stronger maybe, but in what game DON'T you have to play for a while to get decent at it?

For all you FPS peoples out there (including myself, huge fps fan), who're used to having everything unlocked, you may have everything unlocked, but you're still going to have to work at it to get really good and be able to just entirely murder everyone on the field, it takes some practice normally.

And also...you play those FPS games for many many weeks, over and over again right? I know damn well that you guys who don't like grinding play the games with no "grinding" hundreds of hours anyway. So what's the difference? Here, you're getting better the more you play, in the other games, you get better the more you play.

Also, I don't care where you're from or what types of games you play, the game is considered an RPG, and like all other RPGs, you have to actually do something to get stronger, that's the point of "role playing".

Now...I see where the other people are coming from, complaining about having to search for hours to get one skill from a boss and what not, and trying to get all yer runes, that makes sense, I can see how that can be frustrating. But every game has it's frustrating moments where you find yourself unable to do something, even all those games that hand you everything. Also, would it really be any fun if everyone had the EXACT same armor states and the EXACT same runes and you NEVER had to work for ANY of it? Everybody would be the same, you create a PvP character, you and the other warrior will be able to do all the same moves, if you have a face-off, it's going to be who gets the first hit in who wins, since you'll just be swinging back and forth.

What's that? You use your skills and your brain to outsmart the other guy and use skill from that point forward? Well why don't you do that when the guy has an extra rune?

People care too much about winning, play the game, have fun. I understand about being angry to wait around, but how fast you get the items, also depends on your skill (to an extent).

I've been playing the game for about 6 days now, and I'm still only lvl 13 right now on my second character, the first I only used for one day. I know of many people who got to 20 in a day. And they played for less time than I did.

Is he going to beat me in a battle? Absolutely. Is it because he played longer than me? Absolutely not. He's just better at the game right now and knows more, so he got their faster than I did. The game DOES go by skill, not time played.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 13, 2005, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

I think the main problem here (from my view at least) is that people...care too much about winning all the time. Play for fun people....

We've been saying over and over that the grind ISN'T fun. So thanks for making our point for us. And you're making a big generalization saying that people care too much about winning.

PieXags · May 13, 2005, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Yeah, I am. But from what I've seen in this entire thread, the reason they hate the grind so much is because they supposedly need to do it to win. This being why I felt it was safe to make that generalization, if you don't care about winning so much you won't care about grinding so much. Some people play to win though, and I guess that's just the way they do things. I personally just play when I get time and have as much fun as possible doing whatever I feel like doing, whether it be ditching my character for a simple off-the-shelf lvl 20 pvp character and messing around for 3 hours or simply working my way through the world, makes no difference to me. If ever I get to a point where I hate it too much, I just go play another game, then come back. Not a big deal. There isn't anything in the game I couldn't predict by reading, and even looking at the box on the shelf.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 13, 2005, 05:49 AM // 05:49

You're missing the point. Some of us don't like the grind not strictly because it takes too long but because it's simply not fun for us. The capture system, for instance, forces people to repeat missions and that really isn't fun. It's really not about people wanting to win, everyone wants to win. But people want to have fun most of all as you pointed out.

Manderlock · May 13, 2005, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

*sighs* This thread like so many other has devolved into the same old "You're lazy! There's no grind you're just stupid!" thread again. I'm not asking to take away the fun for the hardcore grinders. They can still grind if they want to. But it seems like they always seem to want to force their "fun" on others. I'd just like an option, an alternative to getting certain things.

It's just an opinion and a gripe of many other's but people can't seem to stand differing opinions. If you're so happy with the game why not just let people voice their opinions without bashing them and you go play the game youre so happy with and have no gripes with at all?

The reason is kind of what Xellos has already stated, I like it how it is. Therefore if Gaile comes and reads this she will know that where are upset, other are content. Yes, we will defend it as it stands.

I however dont like the "get off your lazy ass and do it" argument. I have given many different ideas on how to make everyone happy, and i dont feel like typing them all over again. (I feel like there 973465 threads on this same damn issue)

Edit: "We've been saying over and over that the grind ISN'T fun. So thanks for making our point for us. And you're making a big generalization saying that people care too much about winning."

What you call "grind" isent what i consider "grind", so you are generalizing right there. Challenge does not = Grind in my book.

Mila · May 13, 2005, 06:09 AM // 06:09

I for one am glad that it's been out two weeks (oh my gosh, have I really been addicted that long?) and I'm not close to 'having it all'. Who would want to pay $50 for a game and be done with it that quickly? I like getting my money's worth!

Xellos · May 13, 2005, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Here's the real problem: This game whether you like it or not has item dependency.

So you either quench the thirst, starve it, or just plain fix it.

Quenching it would be giving back a place to farm quickly, so that in a year from now, all the competitive teams can have all 450 skills unlocked and can work on advanced strategies/tactics more then running around praying for their superior air rune. Newcomers are also given the advantage, as within a month, their first build would be set for competitive PVP, which gives a fair chance. So as long as it's reasonably quick, it's all good.

Now you go "but Xellos, you said frame of reference is a no no". Well let's use a universal one. Most of us here probably have school or jobs right? But let's be lenient and pull to the school part, because they have more time period compared to a full time worker. A kid has like what? 2 months for summer? 1 month for winter? 2 weeks for spring break? Those are the numbers you want to cater to then. You want them to be able to be competitive for at least a week by the time those numbers are up. As for which number? Up to Anet. But anywhere longer then a summer is just being hypocritical. It's already harsh on people who have families, and such, but they are older, and probably understand that they are going to get left out of the loop on these things. But teenagers and young adults? Oh your going bankrupt if you screw with this.

Starving it is currently what this game is doing now. Gaile may come in and defend it, but I don't care how she puts it, unless I gain a yellow rune every instance past the desert, this is not even 1/50th of the speed people were putting in Riverside. Now that the wealth is "distributed evenly", we can't even at least have luck on our side. Now it's whoevers going to win the 649 jackpot has a chance to get all those runes or maybe even half unlocked by the end of this year. The only people who are getting even half or maybe if their lucky all the superior runes would be the guys who grind in the first place. They'd grind the explorables. Calculate loot drops and what not.

I'd also like to mention starving makes EBAY oh-so-more lovable. I hope Station Exchange doesn't come in here. /pizza.

Lastly, you can FIX it.

Hardest to do, for sure. I expect fixing it to be a long term goal. I wouldn't have the audacity to ask for it within even by winter. But pulling off would truely make this the starcraft of online rpgs. How do you fix it? Well this forum is GWG for a reason. There's tons of general consensus on things. Elite skill system for one. I personally think the runes and item mods are too huge of a difference in the first place. Some of you might agree. I'm not going to suggest how you fix it, because that takes way too much consideration, and like I said would be like the 1.10 patch for diablo kinda big.

You wanna know what Anet did right when it came to PVE rewards? 15k Armour set. That's right. Some of those things look damn awesome (necro bone lace? nice), and are well worth your PVE grind if you care for it. But will it make you an unstoppable monster? No. Another thing about PVE > PVP that no one has failed to mention is that it DOES give VERY small advantages to PVE characters.

Take this mod for example:

20%+ damage
-5 energy
or
-10 armour
or
-1 degen something
or
I forgot the rest

Some of you might think it sucks, but on things like a warrior with gladiator set, that's gold. Shatter enchant? No problem, still 20% up. On barragebots? Not golden. Platinum.

These innate mods aren't available for PVP characters. So you shouldn't complain that your time is wasted. There are VERY little but still considered advantages that you can get that won't break the game already. You just haven't grinded long enough to get it. Or you weren't lucky. See how it feels?

Again, I hope I'm not offending anyone. I'm just trying to point out that PVE already has benefits, and should expand on the things that Anet has done right, not expand on the things they have done WRONG. You don't want to end up having an HONOUR SYSTEM in guild wars two years down the road just to please people who want some phat lewt for their arena kills.

Zeru · May 13, 2005, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Starcraft comparisons? Well I guess your name is Xellos for a reason

But yeah with the whole theme of GW being placed on choice and ability having such strong items being so rare is kind of silly. If there are good rare items (runes for example), someone in the competitive PvP scene will do the grind needed to get them. And once they do, eveyone else will have to follow suit in order to stay competitive (11/10 expertise/marksmanship ranger compared to a 13/12, there's a world of difference for example).

And besides, PvP folks aren't the only ones affected. I don't have a good PvP guild atm, so I'm just playing the regular PvE game. However, I'd like for my characters to be as efficient as possible even in just that because I'll have the most fun with them then. That means spending hours looking over skillsets and seeing what will work best for my goals. That's fine. That also means getting the tools necessary for that; for my Ranger, runes for exp/marks and Barrage. If there was a quest for Barrage, I'd gladly do it. If there were quests for those runes, sign me up. If it was hard and long, so be it, at least there would be no randomness and I knew I had a reward when I finished it. But having to find the correct boss that uses it (still don't know), and then replay the mission over and over, owing up for the times that the boss doesn't use the skill, is the wrong profession, or dies too fast. The randomness is a huge part of the grind that is hated. The same with item drops.

Saus proposed an excellent system for skills in the other thread around here that emphasized choice over pure playing time. He also had a non-random way of getting runes through quests, though imo that could take awhile to put in. A quick solution for that would be as Xellos said, improve rare drops in certain places enormously so we don't have to waste so much time looking for random occurances.

Xellos · May 13, 2005, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Starcraft comparisons? Well I guess your name is Xellos for a reason

Besides the little modding community remark, I'll just say for fun that starcraft comparisons make sense. It was done by the same company in a way I guess, and was at the time and still today considered the most balanced PVP game that isn't symmetrical (shooters don't really count, since their almost symmetrical). You don't make a tennis game without comparing it to pong.

Manderlock · May 13, 2005, 07:55 AM // 07:55

There are no "uber" items in this game. Even if a guy happens to have all of the "uber" stuff, he still only has an edge. An edge is not game deciding.

Xellos you are right, this game is item driven. Not for their "uber" stats, but for purly cosmetic reasons.

Xellos · May 13, 2005, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

There are no "uber" items in this game. Even if a guy happens to have all of the "uber" stuff, he still only has an edge. An edge is not game deciding.

Xellos you are right, this game is item driven. Not for their "uber" stats, but for purly cosmetic reasons.

Actually, you just disagreed with me. I stated that items SHOULD be cosmetic with minor boosts at most, which I gave examples to. Superior Runes for one, is a giant leap in item dependency. Take away Superior Expertise, and rangers are suddenly not exactly wanted.

Zealous is a big modifier. And so is elemental ones. Their NEEDED. Which is a bad thing.

I'm suggesting they fix this. Or quench it. Currently they are starving it.

Manderlock · May 13, 2005, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

Actually, you just disagreed with me. I stated that items SHOULD be cosmetic with minor boosts at most, which I gave examples to. Superior Runes for one, is a giant leap in item dependency. Take away Superior Expertise, and rangers are suddenly not exactly wanted.

Zealous is a big modifier. And so is elemental ones. Their NEEDED. Which is a bad thing.

I'm suggesting they fix this. Or quench it. Currently they are starving it.

The superior runes do give a good boost, but they have thier down sides.

EDIT: and I didnt mean that you where right in your thinking, just that your statment was right.

Xellos · May 13, 2005, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

The superior runes do give a good boost, but they have thier down sides.

Like what? -25 hp after Superior Vigor? Oh Noez. I'd give it up for my 2 mana barrage, oh which with my zealous, gives me back 1 if I just hit one guy. Let's see your upside counter my versatility of superior runes. You can't.

Currently, not all builds are based on superior runes. But a significant amount are. There's a reason guys like Ensign scramble to buy any superior up for sale. It's that damn good.

Honestly don't believe me? Try getting a Superior Air Rune then knocking a lightning orb. The damage is orgasmic. 230 from one shot to a monk? You'll never get anywhere close with clean templates.

75- hp is hefty, but versatility ultimately is what this game is about, and hp is only one aspect, where as runes give you almost 10x as much aspects in advantages.

You can even do the math. By using Superior Expertise, you can use 10 expertise, put the superior and mask together and reach the magic number 14. Let's see you do it with a minor rune and mask. That's 2 more attributes. Big fat hefty attributes. Around 13-16 or something. So let's just say 13 and 16. That's 29 skill points. You could've used that to further your beast mastery, further your shock sniper, further your wilderness. It all adds up.

And if you think that only applies to range think again. Even with a major rune, I can get 1-2 second difference in killing speed when it comes to priest ganking in tombs. I go from 20 to 25 or something around there on monks when I use major swords. 5 damage per swing increase? That's exponential. In fact, it increases my most powerful skill. 100 Blades. Indirectly too. Whereas HP is not.

May 13, 2005, 08:25 AM // 08:25

The downside on superiors actually isn't that big due to the way teams target monks first . So an Elementalist with a superior actually doesn't need to care. You can just add in a superior vigor to erase the penalty if you need.

The +20% enchantment items are huge, but hard to notice off the bat.

Xellos · May 13, 2005, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

The downside on superiors actually isn't that big due to the way teams target monks first . So an Elementalist with a superior actually doesn't need to care. You can just add in a superior vigor to erase the penalty if you need.

The +20% enchantment items are huge, but hard to notice off the bat.

Oh let's add a little snipe at grinding while we are at it. The 20% increase is only if your lucky enough to unlock a perfect one OOOOOHHHHHH :P Otherwise your stuck with 10% or something. Ho ho ho.

xaanix · May 13, 2005, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Just a note who dont think there is grind:
I'm done all the missions, i have 100 hours played. I've unlocked MOST skills on my primary and secondary profession (mes/mo). I spent the last 25 or so of my gameplay hours farming runes and skills. I switched my secondary profession today and bought 5 skills, I now have only *1* skillpoint remaining. It takes a huge amount of xp to level, and that gets me 1 additional skill. Now that riverside is fixed, getting any runes will take a miracle. I pity those who didnt farm it while they had the chance.

The end game now in pve is 100% grind. At this point i've given up on unlocking runes or item bonuses, i'll likely just have to grind xp and just hope for the best. The only people who have this stuff unlocked going forward are people who farmed riverside nonstop and those who were lucky enough to farm wreckages in the desert for item bonuses right after retail went live. Everyone else is screwed. So much for a level playingfield eh?

Navaros · May 13, 2005, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Studio Ghibli

Howdy,

I've read a handful of threads that involve people complaining about the Guild Wars Grind.

Being a graduate of Lineage 2, I'm confused.

If you're one of these people complaining, are you doing so because:

1) You can't immediately do what you want to do, as was seemingly advertised in beta? A bait and switch, as it were?

2) .. that.. there's actual Grind? 'cause I haven't really seen anything.

there is plenty of grind in Guild Wars. just because some other games have more grind; that does not mean that Guild Wars' relatively shorter grind somehow magically ceases to be a grind.

since you have not seen any grind in Guild Wars, let me point out some for you:

1. having to travel through the same areas millions of times, and fight the same enemies that you've already killed billions of times yet again, with a new mob popping up every 10 seconds. of course you get zero experience or reward for all of this (once you are a few levels higher than the enemy).

2. by the same token as point (1.), having to kill the same enemies that you just killed 5 minutes ago, because they respawned when you ran into a load screen that loaded a new zone. a new zone which you only needed to walk in for 2 minutes in order to talk to the NPC there. then as soon as you go back out, it's back to the agonizingly tedious torturous grind of killing those same mobs over and over again ad nauseaum

3. having to walk everywhere to get town markers. Guild Wars tries to be like Diablo II in a lot of ways, but in this way it really fubared everything up really bad. Guild Wars needs a Town Portal esque system so that you do not have to manually walk to new towns (and while doing so, encounter the endless respawn grinds mentioned above) in order to get to them. if your buddy has been to a town, he should be able to teleport you to that town. just like in Diablo II

4. the party-finding grind. for a game based around parties, Guild Wars really drops the ball here. finding a party takes forever due to the fact that you can not form a party other than with people in the exact same instance of the exact same district as you. it means only people who need the exact same quests as you will party with you, thus greatly limiting your ability to find recruits. it means you have to scrounge around with the few players in your instance and invite just about everyone you see just to get a full party. and if you are lucky enough to even get a full party, chances are it won't be a competent or well-balanced one. of course going through this aggravation the first few times is not so bad. but then when you realize that you have to go through this party-finding grind every time you ever want to do a new quest or mission, it dawns on you that the party-finding grind in Guild Wars is horrendously bad. Guild Wars needs to let you form parties with anyone, anywhere - no matter what district they are in. as it stands, Guild Wars has the absolute worst party-making system ever.

now in rebuttal to point (4.) i'm sure two things will come up, so i shall address those now:

1. form a Guild. well sure that's great, but even with a Guild...not all of your Guild members will be online at the same time as you. and they won't have the same amount of playing time as you. so you will either be further ahead, or further behind in the game than them. in which case, having a Guild does little to address the party-finding grind. and even if they are at the exact same quest as you, having to manually tell everyone where to go to meet you (district number, and then where you are standing in the district itself) is still a mind-numbingly aggravating grind

2. use henchmen: to that the simple response is, henchmen suck. not a viable option.

Xellos · May 13, 2005, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

There is NO REASON for you to moan about the fact that a game does not equate to expectations for left-field play methods, such as grinding, as it isn't actually what makes or breaks the game, it's just a bonus factor, so either quit whining and go play the game the way it was designed to be played, OR go grind more and if you start to feel frustrated with the fact that it isn't very effective, realise that this is because the designers have done their job, and designed a game that is fun to PLAY and not to GRIND.

Can you explain to me which side you are on? Against or for grinding? Your post seems to be very confusing grammarically to me, so I'd like you to ask for a enlightenment.

Second, in competitive PVP, grind is what makes or breaks you.

Quote:

- just clog up the forums, fps and mmo/rpg are two very different genres, and shouldn't be compared for the sake of determining anything such as hours required to develop skill and understanding of the game mechanic.

That makes no sense. This game promotes competition. It is one of those games that might make it into the world cyber games. Why shouldn't it be up with shooters or RTSes? It's just a different genre, the core design though, aims at strategy, tactics, skill, and loads of other factors based on the player himself/herself rather then some digit value in the game that determines the winner. So if I said Marvel vs Capcom was less balanced then Counter-Strike, it's invalid? How so? Balance is balance.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 13, 2005, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

What you call "grind" isent what i consider "grind", so you are generalizing right there. Challenge does not = Grind in my book.

Which is why I said "We find the grind isnt fun" I made no generalizations. I was speaking for the people who don't like the grind. I didnt say "grind isnt fun" But why are we even arguing about petty things like that?